Every DD classs is dead and useless except beam arcanist now

sarahthes

sans-culottes wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

mrreow wrote: »

I plainly refuse to do weaving because it has detrimental effect on anyone in the long run and I want to use my hands for long years yet

Praise the beam

No, weaving does not automatically have a detrimental effect on anyone. Saying so makes me wonder if you understand how to use it properly.

Let's ignore beams and channeled skills for a moment: we can only cast one skill per GCD (about a second). This means you cast one light attack per second while weaving correctly as well. I have two hands. I can't speak for controller users, but for me that means one skill per second with one hand on the keyboard, and one light attack per second with my other hand using the side button of my mouse. The rhythm is smooth, simple and one input per second per hand is not even slightly demanding. It does not strain me. It does not stress me. It does not leave my hands or wrists in pain. (For the record I have suffered from RSI in my hands/wrists, but smart choices about my keyboard, mouse and control scheme go a long way...)

There are of course people who have genuine issues that limit their mobility or cause pain, and they definitely can struggle with weaving (or just playing in general), but let's not pretend it applies to "anyone". It simply doesn't.

That said, I'm happy there are people who enjoy beam and feel enabled to do more content because of it, be that because of a genuine issue that makes higher CPM gameplay a problem for them or just personal preference. The real issue here is that in newer trials (the hardest ones to complete a trifecta in) beam dominates. It's not simply a tiny bit better than other playstyles. It largely leaves other playstyles in the dust to the point that most players cannot get a space as a parse DD in groups that have a chance to beat this content unless they play beam. And those of us who find beam unengaging, tedious and simply not fun should not be forced to play, what feels to us, a less skilled and less interesting playstyle simply because some people find it easier to play.

Most of us don't want to nerf beam, and I suspect those saying to nerf it are mostly doing so for lack of seeing better ways to balance things. What most of us we want is an alternative for ranged cleave that enables other playstyles to perform on the same level. It shouldn't be "us against them". It should be about enabling as many players as possible to play in a way that works for them and enables them to have fun.

This means preserving beam as a valid way to play, but not as the only way players can reasonably attempt end game content.

Respectfully, your description of light attack weaving—or rather, animation canceling—as one relaxed input per second per hand does not reflect the actual experience of most high-end content. Weaving is rarely performed in isolation. It is accompanied by constant DoT management, bar swaps, skill procs, ult tracking, positional movement, and resource mitigation. None of that occurs on a metronome.

The issue is not whether light attack weaving/animation canceling is theoretically ergonomic when reduced to its simplest components. The issue is how it functions in the actual rhythm of ESO combat. In practice, the pace often climbs well beyond a simple 2-input rhythm, and the corrections imposed by lag or animation glitches make it worse.

Your setup works for you. That’s good. But asserting that strain is mostly a matter of “understanding how to use it properly” sidesteps the complaint. That some players experience physical consequences from sustained weaving is not theoretical. It is empirical. And dismissing that with technique advice risks sounding less like perspective and more like gatekeeping.

Thank you for saying this. My hands are absolutely wrecked these past few months and I attribute it fully to playing at a much higher level than I did before, on classes/specs that require constant high output levels (zk stagger jail, healing, EC cro).

twisttop138

I don't mind saying one bit that I use Arc as a stepping stone into vet and hm content. People can find it brain dead, or simple and talk all smack they want. I'll keep enjoying it while I learn the mechanics of the fights and learn other classes. That was the plan before subclassing was announced anyway. But why call for nerfs when you can call for other classes and play styles to be brought in line with it. Give other classes ranged cleave. Someone said it above and it's a great idea. I've met quite a few folks that are in endgame because of Arc. While I want to learn other classes and support roles, not everyone can or wants to. Let's keep it accessible to everyone willing to put in the time.

Cominfordatoothbrush

It's a little concerning to think people are learning to light attack weave by just spamming the light attack button. You'll both be better at the game and strain yourself less if you click exactly once per skill. I may be misreading what people mean, but it's what I hear when I read it described as button mashing

ItsNotLiving

Enjoy your 3 endgame builds in PvE and zero build diversity in PvP. Joke of a game now.

Ezhh

sans-culottes wrote: »

Respectfully, your description of light attack weaving—or rather, animation canceling—as one relaxed input per second per hand does not reflect the actual experience of most high-end content. Weaving is rarely performed in isolation. It is accompanied by constant DoT management, bar swaps, skill procs, ult tracking, positional movement, and resource mitigation. None of that occurs on a metronome.

The issue is not whether light attack weaving/animation canceling is theoretically ergonomic when reduced to its simplest components. The issue is how it functions in the actual rhythm of ESO combat. In practice, the pace often climbs well beyond a simple 2-input rhythm, and the corrections imposed by lag or animation glitches make it worse.

Your setup works for you. That’s good. But asserting that strain is mostly a matter of “understanding how to use it properly” sidesteps the complaint. That some players experience physical consequences from sustained weaving is not theoretical. It is empirical. And dismissing that with technique advice risks sounding less like perspective and more like gatekeeping.

It reflects the experience for me personally and for many other players I know, and I haven't argued anywhere that it holds for all players. My issue was with the original poster's blanket statement that anyone light attack weaving will face a detrimental effect in the long run, which is simply not true. Calling weaving "button mashing" is also inaccurate. Can it be overwhelming and feel like the one step too much for some people? Of course it can. But so can all kinds of other things. For some people one skill a second is too much. For some, movement while casting any skills is too much. Everyone has a different limit.

My argument has been and will remain that it's completely fine for people to not want to engage with weaving and I'm happy that people who enjoy beaming feel it's a release from weaving for them, but none of these things should be used to invalidate or as a reason to remove the gameplay that I and many other players have engaged with for years and genuinely enjoy. Yet this is effectively where we are, so... of course we speak against it. I choose to do so without screaming for beam nerfs because I care about other people's experience and not just my own. (If you play harder trials you may know how frustrating filling groups can be - I want a bigger pool of people to fill from, not a smaller one!)

I'll also add, if the issue is simply weaving then you must also consider that a top level arc player still weaves, and that most DDs who care about optimising run Velothi which greatly reduces the need for good weaving (outside of use of select sets and score pushing).

I'd be happy to even see a valid end game DD set up that 100% removes any use of weaving for those who dislike it, but again, I can't stress this enough - removing busier/more difficult/"button mashing" game play - whatever you want to call it - to just use low CPM channel skills is simply not engaging for many people. Some of us enjoy the higher CPM gameplay (including weaving) and it's been present in the game for years, so of course we are unhappy when it gets worse results than beam.

And I just want to add regarding this specifically:

sans-culottes wrote: »

That some players experience physical consequences from sustained weaving is not theoretical. It is empirical. And dismissing that with technique advice risks sounding less like perspective and more like gatekeeping.

I feel there is a misunderstanding here, because I've literally acknowledged this. I again want to stress my issue is the blanket claim that anyone weaving is going to experience determinantal long term effects. I'm not sure how this is gatekeeping.

sarahthes

Cominfordatoothbrush wrote: »

It's a little concerning to think people are learning to light attack weave by just spamming the light attack button. You'll both be better at the game and strain yourself less if you click exactly once per skill. I may be misreading what people mean, but it's what I hear when I read it described as button mashing

It is more LA Skill Synergy Pot Bash Barswap. Not LA button mashing.

That said, with my ping I do sometimes have to LA twice.

twisttop138

So you guys don't LA in-between skills when playing an arc? This is the first time I've tried to go beyond random normals so I never waved before but when I was taught my rotation my vet trials raid lead insisted I LA between every skill even with velothi on as it's something you need to do on every class. It's muscle memory now. I don't mean for those of you with hand issues, my wife has carpal tunnel, and arc has allowed her to do things she could never do before. Solo WB fights, arenas etc.

mrreow

I often speak in a way that is a tad provocative on purpose (button mashing, universally health runing). Ample use of hyperboles is my style but it isn't to be taken literally. Limitations of text.

Ezhh wrote: »

Just saying so this particular topic can be closed as we are on the same page really more or less. I am of an opinion though that weaving isn't a good mechanic and that even something like ffxiv has smoother and less frantic and clunky rotations.

In my personal tier list of mmo combat, eso is somewhere below the smoothest staple implementations of tab targeting.
The game would be incredibly better with proper cooldowns, more skills on the bar and no weaving but this horse is so dead it is now a fertilizer.
Arcanist beamer build is merely a very viable more than viable style of playing that bypasses the horrors of eso combat.

r3turn2s3nd3r

twisttop138 wrote: »

So you guys don't LA in-between skills when playing an arc? This is the first time I've tried to go beyond random normals so I never waved before but when I was taught my rotation my vet trials raid lead insisted I LA between every skill even with velothi on as it's something you need to do on every class. It's muscle memory now. I don't mean for those of you with hand issues, my wife has carpal tunnel, and arc has allowed her to do things she could never do before. Solo WB fights, arenas etc.

At the bare mininum there should be a light attack (or heavy attack, block an attack, dodge an attack or heal someone besides yourself) every 9 seconds to keep your ultimate generating.

A light attack is the easiest and quickest way to keep it ticking for a dd obviously.

Ideally it's between every skill cast. More damage is more damage regardless of how little it is.

ThancredLux

i don't light attack and will never light attack.

i just spam mountain dew beam and still are the top dps by a landslide.

Orbital78

ThancredLux wrote: »

i don't light attack and will never light attack.

i just spam mountain dew beam and still are the top dps by a landslide.

I don't enjoy light attack weaving personally, it doesn't feel natural to game play for me. You are however missing out on a considerable amount of ultimate if you don't do it every so often. If you're just farming overland or normal dungeons, it probably doesn't much matter though.

For some of the others trying to gatekeep:
All this fatecarver hate sounds like the torchbearers of heavy attack build yesteryears. A top tier 1%'er is going to be able to use any build to clear pretty much any content. Just because they find it mind numbingly boring, doesn't mean they shouldn't try a more challenging build and enjoy that rather than calling for everyone elses fun to be ruined so they cannot do the same content or have a chance to do it. Get over yourselves and let people have fun and do the content they want. You're going to be able to do it all anyway, you're already skipping mechs as it is.

francesinhalover

Prionyx wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

it's fine. In some months it's nerfed. if needed.

No it's not fine. Anyone saying otherwise just doesn't want their accessibility class nerfed. Nerfing it after months means locking people out of progressing new trial on a DD role, it should be nerfed now

Not sure what you mean with "locked"
All the dps has been increased if you can't do a Trial without beam for aoe something is VERY very wrong.
And if it's guild related. you need to find better guilds.

Dagoth_Rac

You know you don't have to run the meta min/max build every patch? It actually looks like Update 46 will have a greater variety of builds capable of doing viable veteran trial DPS than at any point in the history of ESO.

If you have a personally preferred build and play style that does plenty enough DPS but your raid leader demands more more more, you may want to consider finding different people to play with.

Elvenheart

I’ve played since beta and I can count on one hand the number of total minutes (or maybe seconds) I’ve engaged in weaving in this game. And I don’t even know if those times I’ve tried I was successful or not, but I found the experience very uncomfortable and counter-productive to a healthy play style.

sarahthes

twisttop138 wrote: »

So you guys don't LA in-between skills when playing an arc? This is the first time I've tried to go beyond random normals so I never waved before but when I was taught my rotation my vet trials raid lead insisted I LA between every skill even with velothi on as it's something you need to do on every class. It's muscle memory now. I don't mean for those of you with hand issues, my wife has carpal tunnel, and arc has allowed her to do things she could never do before. Solo WB fights, arenas etc.

The ones who LA are easily distinguishable in logs from the ones who don't, at the upper tiers of gameplay. They're miles ahead in logs because they get out more languids faster and don't waste pillager. Their languids also line up much better with off balance windows.

mdjessup4906

I am so sick of hearing you don't have to weave on arc. Yes you still need to weave, only difference with arc is you get a nice 3-5 second break for your hands Instead of having to rp as a metronome the entire fight.

mrreow

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I am so sick of hearing you don't have to weave on arc. Yes you still need to weave, only difference with arc is you get a nice 3-5 second break for your hands Instead of having to rp as a metronome the entire fight.

You don’t have to weave on arc. If someone complains otherwise, they’ve been sniffing their own smelly socks for too long. Don’t risk real hand injuries over a few elitists’ fantasies. Stand your ground.

sarahthes

mrreow wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I am so sick of hearing you don't have to weave on arc. Yes you still need to weave, only difference with arc is you get a nice 3-5 second break for your hands Instead of having to rp as a metronome the entire fight.

No you don’t have to weave on arc. If someone gets whiny telling you these lies, then they just were sniffing their own smelly socks for too long. Do not give yourself real hand ailments because of fantasies of few digital elitists.

The difference between the top 2 arcanists and the bottom 4 in the pic I posted above was the # of light attacks cast. Two of them got off 3 languids and the others only got off 2.

One of them cheesed their parse by beaming dead zmaja thru the shade also, but that's irrelevant haha.

MorallyBipolar

mrreow wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

snip

I do weave even in pvp on other classes out of habit I guess and lemme tell ya I cannot do this for more than an hour at a time. This non stop button mashing and between them mashing the mouse clicks is something that I hope one day is gone as it is simply clunky and not fun to do. It is a bug turned into a feature after all.
Arcanist is a literal godsend finally one can focus on mechanics, others and the game instead of fighting with mouse and keyboard. Bliss

There should be a skill gap between experienced and inexperienced players. Weaving is an integral part of the combat system and is a good thing.

Rungar

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

mrreow wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

snip

I do weave even in pvp on other classes out of habit I guess and lemme tell ya I cannot do this for more than an hour at a time. This non stop button mashing and between them mashing the mouse clicks is something that I hope one day is gone as it is simply clunky and not fun to do. It is a bug turned into a feature after all.
Arcanist is a literal godsend finally one can focus on mechanics, others and the game instead of fighting with mouse and keyboard. Bliss

There should be a skill gap between experienced and inexperienced players. Weaving is an integral part of the combat system and is a good thing.

yet when the option to just beam everything comes along then that is instantly chosen. Zos should just admit they were wrong about the whole weaving thing, admit their combat system is low impact buff/dot maintenance busywork and rebuild it into something that doesnt frighten off most of their players after a few weeks.

Silaf

ThancredLux wrote: »

i don't light attack and will never light attack.

i just spam mountain dew beam and still are the top dps by a landslide.

The beam is so strong wasting time to charge the ultimate may indeed be a loss of dps...

sans-culottes

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

mrreow wrote: »

Ezhh wrote: »

snip

I do weave even in pvp on other classes out of habit I guess and lemme tell ya I cannot do this for more than an hour at a time. This non stop button mashing and between them mashing the mouse clicks is something that I hope one day is gone as it is simply clunky and not fun to do. It is a bug turned into a feature after all.
Arcanist is a literal godsend finally one can focus on mechanics, others and the game instead of fighting with mouse and keyboard. Bliss

There should be a skill gap between experienced and inexperienced players. Weaving is an integral part of the combat system and is a good thing.

Why is animation canceling a “good thing”?

Let’s be honest about what it actually is. By ZOS’s own admission, this was never an intended mechanic. It’s a quirk of the engine—a bug-turned-feature—that became enshrined over time because the combat system was built around it retroactively. That doesn’t make it elegant. It makes it a patchwork.

From a design perspective, animation canceling is an unwieldy, highly frenetic system that rewards muscle memory and rapid input cycling more than strategic decision-making. It creates a skill gap, yes, but it’s a gap based on mechanical throughput rather than tactical depth. That’s not inherently “good.” It’s simply punishing for players who don’t want their RPG experience to feel like a rhythm game under duress.

And from an in-world perspective? Imagine what this would look like. Spellcasters spasming between incantations, warriors flailing and stuttering through sword swings, all in a twitchy haze. It’s absurd even by fantasy standards. The idea that this is how combat “should” look or feel in a high-fantasy setting strains credibility.

The goal should be a combat system that rewards thoughtful play, not just mechanical input density. Arcanist hints at that possibility—not because it’s “easier,” but because it’s smoother, cleaner, and actually supports the idea of watching and reacting rather than jamming keys on cooldown.

BretonMage

It doesn't even need to be about weaving or high APM gameplay, but more about personal preference for difference styles of play. Some of us really dislike beaming, and there should be equally effective alternatives for us. As others have said, buff the other classes and skills. Buff one-bar HA builds. Let others have an equal chance at the damage levels beams can attain.

Daoin

BretonMage wrote: »

It doesn't even need to be about weaving or high APM gameplay, but more about personal preference for difference styles of play. Some of us really dislike beaming, and there should be equally effective alternatives for us. As others have said, buff the other classes and skills. Buff one-bar HA builds. Let others have an equal chance at the damage levels beams can attain.

why should there be equally effective things just because dont like it ? i have many chars that are not equally effective, i dont like some of thier effective skills so dont use them in exchange for less dps and more enjoyment. and enjoy playing on the actual char just the same and in the end all that became of this nonesense was udate 46 the worst update in eso history. someone doing more damage on a toon they love to play with skill they like ? time to call daddy eso for a nerf ! with some overcomplicated technical statistics

Bushido2513

First off I do weave, mostly in pvp though and rarely in pve because I take a lighter approach to the content.

Weaving causes stress to your fingers/ hands. That is not up for debate. As with any repeated physical movement, everyone tolerates the stress to different degrees.

In my opinion weaving should be useful and gain you a dps advantage but it's also fine if high end content mostly works without it.

As with all content it would be nice if there was a range that catered to those that really want the extra challenge but that should be a portion of the game, same with medium or easy content.

If someone wants to play a beam build or any build for whatever reason I'd say go for it. I do want buffs that make other options viable but yes I highly support easy builds that make playing the game fun.

If you don't like a beam build then play what's fun for you. If you're upset because someone doing less work than you is keeping up then your opinion is valid but you might want to consider playing only specific content, or only with like minded players, or another game entirely. It's a game and if someone is enjoying a beam build in pve then the game is doing its job.

Ezhh

Bushido2513 wrote: »

If you don't like a beam build then play what's fun for you.

If only it was that simple.

How should we handle it if we want to do the most recent trifectas (because we've done everything else) but the encounter design makes it so that nothing other than ranged cleave is considered viable (for mostly very good reasons) by the community of players in which this content can be realistically beaten?

I was able to do everything up to and including Swash on high CPM parse DDs. This was viable for the vast majority of the game's lifespan to date. I am all for accessibility (I'd like to see HA builds buffed a bit!), but it does feel a bit unfair when this comes at the price of what has been a playstyle many of us fell in love with over the years.

I feel like a stuck record by this point, but it wouldn't be so hard to add a ranged cleave scribed skill with comparable damage to beam that suits a higher CPM gameplay for example. Yes, there'd still be a meta, and it might still even be beam, but at least let there be an option that comes close.

I'm pretty certain I'm asking for too much at this stage, but I care about the game and would like to continue playing, preferably without most of my friends leaving for the same reasons, so I will keep asking.

BretonMage

Daoin wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

It doesn't even need to be about weaving or high APM gameplay, but more about personal preference for difference styles of play. Some of us really dislike beaming, and there should be equally effective alternatives for us. As others have said, buff the other classes and skills. Buff one-bar HA builds. Let others have an equal chance at the damage levels beams can attain.

why should there be equally effective things just because dont like it ? i have many chars that are not equally effective, i dont like some of thier effective skills so dont use them in exchange for less dps and more enjoyment. and enjoy playing on the actual char just the same and in the end all that became of this nonesense was udate 46 the worst update in eso history. someone doing more damage on a toon they love to play with skill they like ? time to call daddy eso for a nerf ! with some overcomplicated technical statistics

There should absolutely be equally effective styles of gameplay. I didn't say every single skill has to be equal, but you can't seriously justify having just ONE skill that stands head and shoulders above all the other 104 class skills? How is that even remotely reasonable?

I think it's fair that beam enjoyers get a powerful attack skill, but by the same reasoning, so should LA weaving enjoyers as well as HA enjoyers. I strongly believe that there should be a way for people with different needs to be able to achieve similar levels of DPS with similar levels of effort.

Daoin

BretonMage wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

It doesn't even need to be about weaving or high APM gameplay, but more about personal preference for difference styles of play. Some of us really dislike beaming, and there should be equally effective alternatives for us. As others have said, buff the other classes and skills. Buff one-bar HA builds. Let others have an equal chance at the damage levels beams can attain.

why should there be equally effective things just because dont like it ? i have many chars that are not equally effective, i dont like some of thier effective skills so dont use them in exchange for less dps and more enjoyment. and enjoy playing on the actual char just the same and in the end all that became of this nonesense was udate 46 the worst update in eso history. someone doing more damage on a toon they love to play with skill they like ? time to call daddy eso for a nerf ! with some overcomplicated technical statistics

There should absolutely be equally effective styles of gameplay. I didn't say every single skill has to be equal, but you can't seriously justify having just ONE skill that stands head and shoulders above all the other 104 class skills? How is that even remotely reasonable?

I think it's fair that beam enjoyers get a powerful attack skill, but by the same reasoning, so should LA weaving enjoyers as well as HA enjoyers. I strongly believe that there should be a way for people with different needs to be able to achieve similar levels of DPS with similar levels of effort.

if you think i enjoy playing arcanist because of the powerful beam you would be sorely mistaken, i wont go into explaining myself as to why arcanist is simply just alot of fun to play but be sure on all my characters i use skills considered non-meta and still enjoy playing them wether or not they decrease my dps if optimial groups dont like it, thats thier problem not one that should extend to me. someone says yeah but look at the state of my cleave compared to his/hers. also not my problem. devs doing what they do to pamper the few, then it becomes my problem too, devs decide to wipe out classes as a result and call it of all things that i could think of, sub-classing, then becomes other peoples problem too, wether or not i like the beam atleast have the decency to leave it on the class where it belongs, along with the other skills for the other classes. and start looking at the broader picture sort of like look before you leap. even ifs devs really dont care what playing eso is in reality anymore, and using dps as some kind of bartering tool to justify this update is laughable, not only on devs but any players that excepts it, and if you honestly think my personal friend list consisted in rank of which were the best players i ever met or who ranks where on the dps chart over the last 11 years then the other players i meet are more gone than i thought, and i dont mean gone as in left the game already as the majtity already have anyway, but...if alot of players actually believe this update is worth the few shiny golden achievments apparently on offer to flash around, who am i to argue with that. on a note though even if beams were fully removed from OP's conversation i would still call this udate disgusting

ForumBully

Not to cast aspersions to PvE, but has there ever been a time when players weren't "forced" to run a meta build of some kind?

Renato90085

ForumBully wrote: »

Not to cast aspersions to PvE, but has there ever been a time when players weren't "forced" to run a meta build of some kind?

For me,U44 and U45 better than many patch,only warden and sorc still can't play.
I forget when,but when arc got mini dps nerf and other class buff /add something(class set
some discord run start allow we use nb(10%buff and greatsword change)or necro(class set)/arc(beam) do hard mode
my friend sbs group only 2 arc dps (just not have warden dd)...he have mobs/st dmg/solo bridge/aoe build 3 pot in this run,not like arc use same 4 set in anywhere
he st dmg low than temp ,but nb good do mechanics like reef and bridge and boss first 50% health better than temp
yes we still trapped in use ec mk Alk and zen in sup rele in parse all player use vma flame staff meta,because Zos made too many useless set in game and same time use bis build dps design trial hm
and forced?yes,
in SE LC and RG and maybe next trial hard mode,we alway forced use arc or maybe dk ,because other class not have aoe spam or spam too bad