sans-culottes wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "ESO’s Developers Share Subclassing System Secrets"

"Customize your knowledge of the new Subclassing system with this developer deep dive."

@ZOS_Kevin, Carrie Day’s “deep dive” comment about subclassing reveals a glaring disconnect between developer intent and actual system outcomes.

“We have no desire to reduce the effectiveness of pure classes,” she says. But desire is not the issue. Desire is irrelevant. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The problem is not what the team wants to happen. The problem is what is already happening—and Necromancer is Exhibit A.

The new subclassing system doesn’t just raise the performance ceiling. It rewires the combat environment. Already, on the PTS, Necromancer’s core skill, Blastbones, has been functionally crippled. The new five-corpse limit, with a five-second expiration, undermines the class’s entire combat rhythm. Worse, Blastbones is frequently failing to fire altogether under the revised system. This is not a “trade-off” scenario. It is a direct, class-breaking regression. And despite repeated, detailed reports from players like @CameraBeardThePirate, the issue has remained unacknowledged for weeks. direct replies.

The claim that “pure classes remain effective” is not true in practice. Necromancer is a pure class. Blastbones is foundational to the way the class functions. Its unreliability under the new system is not just a hypothetical edge case. It is a systemic failure happening in real time.

Subclassing, by design, creates optimization pressure. That pressure will shift expectations in PUGs, trials, and even casual groups. Players who opt out will not be opting out of a “sidegrade.” They will be opting into underperformance, ridicule, or exclusion. We have seen this pattern before with light attack weaving, hybridization, and mythics. The results are always the same.

So when the devs say “you can still play the way you want,” it rings hollow. Yes, you can—but at a cost. What players are asking is why that cost keeps increasing for those who actually care about class identity and reliability. Necromancer’s current state shows just how far off course we already are.

If this is what “accessibility” looks like, then we need a serious reevaluation of what is being measured and who is being heard.

Rungar wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "ESO’s Developers Share Subclassing System Secrets"

"Customize your knowledge of the new Subclassing system with this developer deep dive."

@ZOS_Kevin, Carrie Day’s “deep dive” comment about subclassing reveals a glaring disconnect between developer intent and actual system outcomes.

“We have no desire to reduce the effectiveness of pure classes,” she says. But desire is not the issue. Desire is irrelevant. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The problem is not what the team wants to happen. The problem is what is already happening—and Necromancer is Exhibit A.

The new subclassing system doesn’t just raise the performance ceiling. It rewires the combat environment. Already, on the PTS, Necromancer’s core skill, Blastbones, has been functionally crippled. The new five-corpse limit, with a five-second expiration, undermines the class’s entire combat rhythm. Worse, Blastbones is frequently failing to fire altogether under the revised system. This is not a “trade-off” scenario. It is a direct, class-breaking regression. And despite repeated, detailed reports from players like @CameraBeardThePirate, the issue has remained unacknowledged for weeks. direct replies.

The claim that “pure classes remain effective” is not true in practice. Necromancer is a pure class. Blastbones is foundational to the way the class functions. Its unreliability under the new system is not just a hypothetical edge case. It is a systemic failure happening in real time.

Subclassing, by design, creates optimization pressure. That pressure will shift expectations in PUGs, trials, and even casual groups. Players who opt out will not be opting out of a “sidegrade.” They will be opting into underperformance, ridicule, or exclusion. We have seen this pattern before with light attack weaving, hybridization, and mythics. The results are always the same.

So when the devs say “you can still play the way you want,” it rings hollow. Yes, you can—but at a cost. What players are asking is why that cost keeps increasing for those who actually care about class identity and reliability. Necromancer’s current state shows just how far off course we already are.

If this is what “accessibility” looks like, then we need a serious reevaluation of what is being measured and who is being heard.

dude, accept that the old classes are dead and are really just a few of many possibilities, adapt and make a new class for yourself or live with what you have now. They aren't going to balance classes anymore, just lines and skills. Necromancer is just one of many combinations now. If something doesn't work for you, try something else. this is the power of this system. You don't have to live with it anymore but what you choose is your business.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "ESO’s Developers Share Subclassing System Secrets"

"Customize your knowledge of the new Subclassing system with this developer deep dive."

ZOS_Kevin, Carrie Day’s “deep dive” comment about subclassing reveals a glaring disconnect between developer intent and actual system outcomes.

“We have no desire to reduce the effectiveness of pure classes,” she says. But desire is not the issue. Desire is irrelevant. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The problem is not what the team wants to happen. The problem is what is already happening—and Necromancer is Exhibit A.

The new subclassing system doesn’t just raise the performance ceiling. It rewires the combat environment. Already, on the PTS, Necromancer’s core skill, Blastbones, has been functionally crippled. The new five-corpse limit, with a five-second expiration, undermines the class’s entire combat rhythm. Worse, Blastbones is frequently failing to fire altogether under the revised system. This is not a “trade-off” scenario. It is a direct, class-breaking regression. And despite repeated, detailed reports from players like CameraBeardThePirate, the issue has remained unacknowledged for weeks. direct replies.

The claim that “pure classes remain effective” is not true in practice. Necromancer is a pure class. Blastbones is foundational to the way the class functions. Its unreliability under the new system is not just a hypothetical edge case. It is a systemic failure happening in real time.

Subclassing, by design, creates optimization pressure. That pressure will shift expectations in PUGs, trials, and even casual groups. Players who opt out will not be opting out of a “sidegrade.” They will be opting into underperformance, ridicule, or exclusion. We have seen this pattern before with light attack weaving, hybridization, and mythics. The results are always the same.

So when the devs say “you can still play the way you want,” it rings hollow. Yes, you can—but at a cost. What players are asking is why that cost keeps increasing for those who actually care about class identity and reliability. Necromancer’s current state shows just how far off course we already are.

If this is what “accessibility” looks like, then we need a serious reevaluation of what is being measured and who is being heard.

dude, accept that the old classes are dead and are really just a few of many possibilities, adapt and make a new class for yourself or live with what you have now. They aren't going to balance classes anymore, just lines and skills. Necromancer is just one of many combinations now. If something doesn't work for you, try something else. this is the power of this system. You don't have to live with it anymore but what you choose is your business.

"Accept that the old Classes are dead"

But "Play the way you want!"

🤔

The more I see of this, the more I wonder if the Combat/Systems teams understand their players at all. I'm picturing someone at the meeting telling them that pureclasses are dead and them just saying "wait, why would people want to play pure class?"

LalMirchi wrote: »

I still think that the best approach to this game is adaptability.

"In the raging typhoon storms the bamboo bends but doesn't break while the sturdy oak tree is uprooted."

Rigidity is rather impossible when faced with a major force (the studio's decision to vigorously shake the game's snow-globe). We are not the decision makers despite the frequent and very eloquent arguments by some players. As Spartacus probably said, "Adapt or die"

This isn't a life or death situation. People are allowed to be mad.

And let's face it - if you can't adapt, it doesn't mean you die. It means you leave the game and the game starts to die.

We already had a mass exodus on Morrowind's release. We had a mass exodus for AWA. We had a mass exodus for U35. Some people adapted, some left. A bunch of people sticking their head in the sand and pretending that several mass exodus events is healthy for a game's population isn't going to change anything.

I already know I'm keeping my characters pure because I built them the way I wanted, and the only time I'm playing with Subclassing is going to be when I'm forced to for my trial prog and then I'm taking it out immediately after. I was originally thinking how I could play with it on other characters, but honestly the attitude of "lol who would ever play a pure class?" is honestly only galvanizing my will to keep them pure.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

being viable doesn't mean the best. All classes are viable in all content in all three roles. Doesn't mean they are the best or competitive. Just viable. I dont think zos concerns themselves with anything other than viability. What other players impose on you is not their concern.

And here is the big issue.

Yes, they are all viable. I know that, I've done things that are not particularly favored. But do you know how much fun it is to werewolf tank?

But here's the major issue: can you do trials solo? Or can you get 11 Companions to do it with you? No? Well, then I guess we need to work with other people, and that means we need to be able to work with others.

Maybe everyone who has the "oh, you can do it all and it doesn't need to be meta!" mentality could post their at-names and servers so that people who want to run vet content but are being excluded from their groups because pureclassing is underpowered could still have groups to run with?