Sorc skills need realignment badly.

Yajnho

Your message to the player base was “if you don’t like pets just switch out the line”.

The problem with this is that daedric ward is the most important and most iconic of the sorc skills sorc skills. The only skill that comes close is streak which is pretty much just a PvP skill. Daedric armor is also very important for the passive stat buffs it supplies.

That’s 2 critically important skills which I have just been told to abandon. The changes to the passives in the line really punish me for running the skills without adding a pet. Furthermore, the only sorc ultimate most people use is the atronach, which is the choice whether you are a sorc pet or not.

Meanwhile, dark crystal is the only skill most people are running from dark magic, and a lot of sorc builds don’t even run that. I personally think it’s janky and I don’t like it, but that’s a matter of opinion.

Maybe move a shield and a slottable buff to dark magic? Or just revert the changes in the passives to work for slotting the armor, which would be easier and better.

As it stands (before changes to the passives) I would much rather drop the dark magic line for multiclassing than the daedric summoning line, even as a non-pet sorc. The daedric summoning line is doing way more work and providing far more class identity even without pets.

Red_Feather

It's aggravating that the change was so ham-fisted. What could have happened instead was just give non-pet users a buff that didn't stack so much with other skill lines. Something truly unique.

Dino-Jr

I understand what they were thinking because the first thing alot of people say when they hear subclassing is ‘I am going to build a character with as many pets as possible haha’. This just was a painful way to address that concern.

Modifying the passives to be slightly less impactful overall but the same quality regardless of whether a pet is active to me seems like the best thing to do at this point.

Keep it the same as it was probably isnt on their radar but I would happily accept worse passives that are always available from the line than what PTS currently has.

It sticks out because they basically said ‘play this specific way’ which is inconsistent with the messaging around why subclassing is being implemented which I am supportive of ‘play your way and experiment’

Trejgon

Dino-Jr wrote: »

I understand what they were thinking because the first thing alot of people say when they hear subclassing is ‘I am going to build a character with as many pets as possible haha’. This just was a painful way to address that concern.

That would only apply to the daedric prey changes. Not the general sumamry to daedric summining skill line, or the backtracking on the distinction in skill/passive functionality based on whether permanent pet is present or not.

necro_the_crafter

curse, shield and armaments shoud be swaped with mines, rune and encase.

Encase can become pet buffing skill, rune is cc, and shields from mines should also affect pets.
Daedric Prey can be given some other function, like providing some strong debuff over 6 secs but deal less damage, something like major brittle to make it stand out

Also would be nice if they changed armaments vfx to crystals like we see in dark magic theme

minor propehsy passive also needs something more, maybe 8-10% magic damage bonus on top? nb's have a crit bonus + minor savagery, sorcs also need something with their minor prophecy to be brought up in power.

Dino-Jr

Trejgon wrote: »

That would only apply to the daedric prey changes. Not the general sumamry to daedric summining skill line, or the backtracking on the distinction in skill/passive functionality based on whether permanent pet is present or not.

Yea I am fine with and understand the logic for almost everything they did besides the changes to the passives tbh.

Wereswan

The best part is that if they do this and rework the skill lines to conform to the "DPS, healing, tank/utility" division on newer classes, which line becomes which? Someone proposed this for Templar and I hate it, since I use a lot of Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath abilities. It's only going to be more controversial on Sorceror, where some people didn't want to run pets in the first place.

Edit to add: what probably needs to happen is that some classes (or rather, some groups of themed class skill lines, since "class" is being abandoned) need a fourth or fifth dedicated "healer" and/or "tank" line that people playing those classes currently could use, so DK would have the missing "healer" line, Templar a "tank" line, etc. Unfortunately the odds of this happening this patch are probably nil.

Yajnho

I wish it was only the passives, but the fact is that ward is the best sorc skill, and key to the class identity. But the passives now only support it if you have a pet. I couldn’t care less about the heal on it. I just don’t want drop on of my best skills because I loose an entire tree of passives. Even without pets daedric summoning skills are ALL good, it’s really the only line without throw away skills. Consequently nerfs to this line disproportionately affect sorc even if they don’t play with pets.

Turtle_Bot

Wereswan wrote: »

The best part is that if they do this and rework the skill lines to conform to the "DPS, healing, tank/utility" division on newer classes, which line becomes which? Someone proposed this for Templar and I hate it, since I use a lot of Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath abilities. It's only going to be more controversial on Sorceror, where some people didn't want to run pets in the first place.

Edit to add: what probably needs to happen is that some classes (or rather, some groups of themed class skill lines, since "class" is being abandoned) need a fourth or fifth dedicated "healer" and/or "tank" line that people playing those classes currently could use, so DK would have the missing "healer" line, Templar a "tank" line, etc. Unfortunately the odds of this happening this patch are probably nil.

Even if ZOS simply adjusted the lines to better reflect pet vs non-pet builds, that would go a long way to solving these issues.

As it stands now, Curse, Bound Armor and Ward are key core skills for all sorcs (both pet and non-pet), but the current iteration on the PTS is simply saying that pet sorcs get to keep all 3 of those key class skills and can easily swap out the other 2 lines that were barely used for other class lines of their choosing, while non-pet sorcs get all of those key skills completely deleted from their builds, even if they keep the line but don't use pets, and are left trying to fit 3 lines worth of skills into 2 lines that will then hard carry the remaining sorc line that is forced to remain.


Some simple changes/switches that would be less controversial (imo) could be:

• Move Curse + Ward into the dark magic skill line replacing Mines + Rune Prison respectively.
• Move the +5% max stats of the Expert Summoner into the Exploiter passive, bringing it up to par with NB's Hemorrhage passive.
• Rework 1 morph of Negate into a proper PvE DPS ultimate on par with atro. Remove the Silence from this new morph and give it a new group buff, leave the other morph with the silence as the PvP morph (like how DK standard is split into shifting for PvP and Might for PvE).
• Expert Summoner passive now has the increase the pet damage by X% that Daedric Prey used to have instead of max stats (maybe even allow a smaller % value to buff non-sorc pets too) and now actually fits thematically with it's name of "expert summoner".
• Rune Prison can be a pre-buff skill/CC for pets with defensive rune morph also applying to the pets when cast (can remove the stun from scamp so it doesn't mess with tanks CC attempts in group content since this now provides pet sorcs with CC).
• Mines (refuge morph) will be the shield skill for pet sorc, have it always shield the pets on cast. Tomb can be the AoE delayed burst to replace the loss of Curse.
• Prey can now become a new stamina morph of Curse for stamsorcs who lost access to Bound Armaments.

These changes leave Pet builds with access to:

• The pets
• The bonus damage that prey had (that can be applied to non-sorc pets)
• A shield skill (that also supports the group) to replace Conjured Ward that can be morph into a delayed cleave burst if the shield is not wanted (giving the build some cleave)
• The stats from bound armor/aegis and ST delayed burst of armaments morph
• A targeted ability in Rune prison that can be reworked to synergize with the pets

The only thing Pet sorcs lose with these changes is some of the passives from the other 2 lines (which is on par with what other classes give up engaging with subclassing).

These changes leave non-pet sorcs with access to:

• Curse (the delayed burst) with a potential stam morph to replace armaments
• Ward (the class self heal) now potentially balanced since it won't have both aegis and expert summoner max stats both simultaneously buffing it to current crazy levels. The removal of the heal makes sense now too since the blood magic passive will now grant a small heal on ward cast (based off health only, so no max mag shenanigans to buff both shield and heal).
• Expert Summoner max stats (more balanced since it won't be stacked with bound armor max stats unless keeping both lines and has them more comparable to other class passives that buff max stats)
• An alternative ultimate option for PvE comparable to Atro from the negate rework.

The main thing non-pet sorcs lost was the named buffs, minor resolve and minor protection from bound aegis, which can be sourced very easily from other skills and a few of the Daedric Summoning passives (which is on par with what other classes give up engaging with sub-classing).

These few changes/shifts of abilities and a couple of reworked abilities allow both pet sorcs and non-pet sorcs to do what ZOS wants them to and simply "swap those lines out" if they don't want to interact with those other aspects of the sorcerer class while not trying to find 3 lines worth of abilities to fit into 2 lines worth of space.
Yes these changes won't be 100% perfect for absolutely everyone, but they will (imo) be enough for the majority of sorc players to be mostly happy and retain the vast majority of what they enjoyed from their Sorcerer. Some small numbers tweaks will likely be needed for balance, but at least both playstyles will remain viable and reasonably competitive compared to what the other classes will have access to via sub-classing.

NxJoeyD

Sorc skills need a major rework to be competitive in the current gameplay, especially without pets.

When you look at the variety of what other classes offer it’s easy to see how Sorc’s come up short and why so many builds lean on more world skills than Class skills.

Sorcs have so much redundant utility, or the idea of utility, whereas other classes have hard hitting abilities & Ults that give them a genuine identity. Sorcs are left to be cheerleaders with the majority of the Class abilities.

The only abilities that I see which have use in the real world if you’re not running pets are Ward, Streak, & Curse and maybe Wrath .. That’s it, out of 3 full trees we have 3 maybe 4 really useful Class abilities, the rest are mostly throw away.

This is especially true when you look at all of the gear sets and combos out there; so many better options than the majority of Sorc abilities.

gc0018

ZOS: fine, now we allow you to replace 3 skill lines, problem solved.

cuddles_with_wroble

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

The best part is that if they do this and rework the skill lines to conform to the "DPS, healing, tank/utility" division on newer classes, which line becomes which? Someone proposed this for Templar and I hate it, since I use a lot of Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath abilities. It's only going to be more controversial on Sorceror, where some people didn't want to run pets in the first place.

Edit to add: what probably needs to happen is that some classes (or rather, some groups of themed class skill lines, since "class" is being abandoned) need a fourth or fifth dedicated "healer" and/or "tank" line that people playing those classes currently could use, so DK would have the missing "healer" line, Templar a "tank" line, etc. Unfortunately the odds of this happening this patch are probably nil.

Even if ZOS simply adjusted the lines to better reflect pet vs non-pet builds, that would go a long way to solving these issues.

As it stands now, Curse, Bound Armor and Ward are key core skills for all sorcs (both pet and non-pet), but the current iteration on the PTS is simply saying that pet sorcs get to keep all 3 of those key class skills and can easily swap out the other 2 lines that were barely used for other class lines of their choosing, while non-pet sorcs get all of those key skills completely deleted from their builds, even if they keep the line but don't use pets, and are left trying to fit 3 lines worth of skills into 2 lines that will then hard carry the remaining sorc line that is forced to remain.


Some simple changes/switches that would be less controversial (imo) could be:

• Move Curse + Ward into the dark magic skill line replacing Mines + Rune Prison respectively.
• Move the +5% max stats of the Expert Summoner into the Exploiter passive, bringing it up to par with NB's Hemorrhage passive.
• Rework 1 morph of Negate into a proper PvE DPS ultimate on par with atro. Remove the Silence from this new morph and give it a new group buff, leave the other morph with the silence as the PvP morph (like how DK standard is split into shifting for PvP and Might for PvE).
• Expert Summoner passive now has the increase the pet damage by X% that Daedric Prey used to have instead of max stats (maybe even allow a smaller % value to buff non-sorc pets too) and now actually fits thematically with it's name of "expert summoner".
• Rune Prison can be a pre-buff skill/CC for pets with defensive rune morph also applying to the pets when cast (can remove the stun from scamp so it doesn't mess with tanks CC attempts in group content since this now provides pet sorcs with CC).
• Mines (refuge morph) will be the shield skill for pet sorc, have it always shield the pets on cast. Tomb can be the AoE delayed burst to replace the loss of Curse.
• Prey can now become a new stamina morph of Curse for stamsorcs who lost access to Bound Armaments.

These changes leave Pet builds with access to:

• The pets
• The bonus damage that prey had (that can be applied to non-sorc pets)
• A shield skill (that also supports the group) to replace Conjured Ward that can be morph into a delayed cleave burst if the shield is not wanted (giving the build some cleave)
• The stats from bound armor/aegis and ST delayed burst of armaments morph
• A targeted ability in Rune prison that can be reworked to synergize with the pets

The only thing Pet sorcs lose with these changes is some of the passives from the other 2 lines (which is on par with what other classes give up engaging with subclassing).

These changes leave non-pet sorcs with access to:

• Curse (the delayed burst) with a potential stam morph to replace armaments
• Ward (the class self heal) now potentially balanced since it won't have both aegis and expert summoner max stats both simultaneously buffing it to current crazy levels. The removal of the heal makes sense now too since the blood magic passive will now grant a small heal on ward cast (based off health only, so no max mag shenanigans to buff both shield and heal).
• Expert Summoner max stats (more balanced since it won't be stacked with bound armor max stats unless keeping both lines and has them more comparable to other class passives that buff max stats)
• An alternative ultimate option for PvE comparable to Atro from the negate rework.

The main thing non-pet sorcs lost was the named buffs, minor resolve and minor protection from bound aegis, which can be sourced very easily from other skills and a few of the Daedric Summoning passives (which is on par with what other classes give up engaging with sub-classing).

These few changes/shifts of abilities and a couple of reworked abilities allow both pet sorcs and non-pet sorcs to do what ZOS wants them to and simply "swap those lines out" if they don't want to interact with those other aspects of the sorcerer class while not trying to find 3 lines worth of abilities to fit into 2 lines worth of space.
Yes these changes won't be 100% perfect for absolutely everyone, but they will (imo) be enough for the majority of sorc players to be mostly happy and retain the vast majority of what they enjoyed from their Sorcerer. Some small numbers tweaks will likely be needed for balance, but at least both playstyles will remain viable and reasonably competitive compared to what the other classes will have access to via sub-classing.

This guy understands sorc!
@ZOS_Kevin these changes would be amazing and sorc really needs help with subclassing on the horizon

mrreow

ngl sorc is cooked in the next update. You can still play it of course but it will be or already was heavily nerfed to account for everyone having access to streak/hardened ward, while having severe disadvantage in subclassing.

The sad-funny thing is that a lot of pvpers waited for sorc nerfs for ages. But not like that lmao. Now everyone will be streaking around stopping to throw double spec bows 20k crits. It's gonna be more annoying than sorc ever was

Somehow we get worst of both worlds. Not only sorc is nerfed making its players unhappy but its most annoying and unbalanced skills get to be everywhere. You probably couldn't make it worse even if you tried

xylena_lazarow

If they can make time to move Veiled Strike into Assassination and then continue streamlining that tree into an overpowered one stop shop, patch after patch... then yeah there's zero reason they can't fix Sorc's mess of skill trees. U45 PvP Sorc definitely needed a nerf, but the bizarre way they rearranged the pieces really hurts it in the subclassing meta.